Monday, June 18, 2007

BASIC TRAINING

UPDATED to include our incursion into Mr. Markus's territory.

Submitted for your consideration: our discussion on the SAO and training.



We are probably not the best source for this discussion because our contact with new prosecutors is limited. However, we have heard from lawyers who practice in County Court daily that the training for the new prosecutors is wanting.

We do not think that prosecutors are told to convict the innocent. We do believe that almost every prosecutor would dismiss charges against a person who is innocent.

But innocence is a difficult concept. We are not talking about the person who can prove he/she was having dinner with the Pope when the crime was committed.

We are talking about cases that do not have a such a clear line.

It is our belief, based not on a scientific survey, but more on a series of discussions with prosecutors over the years, that the training in the SAO has more to do with winning cases than seeking justice. It is our contention that in the 1980’s a young prosecutor who was troubled by a case had more authority to seek justice, and less difficulty in dealing with a seemingly endless myriad of supervisors to obtain a justified result.


It is our opinion-based on experience- that today prosecutors are trained to attack a justified defense, rather than seriously consider it. We have heard of young prosecutors frustrated to the point of quitting, by a bureaucracy that will not listen to them.

Perhaps we are right, perhaps we are wrong.

We invite discussion on this issue.

We are often asked to hold emails confidential. We are often emailed by Judges, politicians, well known lawyers, and asked to post their thoughts anonymously or keep their emails in confidence. We have always honored that request. Should any prosecutor care to email us confidentially, we will keep their identity secret to the extent the law allows.

Have at it.

See You in Court.


PS: Mr. Markus has been stealing our material lately, so turn about is fair play .

Click for the Supreme Court Opinion today in Brendlin v. California in which Justice Souter, writing for a unanimous court found that passengers in vehicles are "stopped" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment and thus have standing to challenge the stop.

The SCOTUS BLOGis a good resource for all things doing with the Magnificent Nine

65 comments:

old guy said...

You miss the point entirely.

The ASAs do not become robots. They do not lose their souls during training. They are often troubled by the rules. Unlike the private sector, they are not lawfully in the position to make policy decisions. If a 'supervisor' says NO, they are virtually locked into the final decision.

The trick, unfortunately, has nothing to do with training.

If someone instructed the County Court supervisors that there is an entire universe aside from misdemeanor-land; and that they should use their discretion to approve a just and lawful result, the world of the traffic defense attorney would change forever. You would have no reason to scare your client into paying a higher fee.

Would that make everyone happy? If so, get up a group and go see Rundle.

Anonymous said...

the post was hyped in the previous discussions by you rumpole (I, WE, YOU) whatever.

Can I be candid?

You have lost your touch. You have lost that funnt bone.

Anonymous said...

I guess you have to have been a prosecutor to really understand their problems.

Clearly innocent is rare. Questionable innocence is there every day.

I get frustrated by prosecutors who are more interested in winning than even considering that our client or our "side" my be correct.

How do you teach young lawyers to have good judgment?

Anonymous said...

Any update on the PD/SAO salary list? Aren't they public record? Does anyone have a copy?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Min says contact him if we known of prosecutors not seeking justice.

But who would the bar prosecute the supervisor who told the asa do it this way or find new work? Can a supervisor hiding on the 3rd floor behind the doritos be held in violation of the rules of professional conduct if he did not appear in court expressing the states position?

Seems like a issue that must be raised by the Justices of this state through the bar etc.

Anonymous said...

Shumie Shumie TV Show
Shumie Shumie Shumie?

Anonymous said...

Can we have one day devoted to Shuie songs; one day devoted to the Q; one day devoted to the power rankings; one day devoted to the SAO; and one day devoted to the supreme court?

Please.

Anonymous said...

Setting: US Supreme Court.

Justice Roberts: Justice Souter will read the opinion of the court today in Brendlin v. California where we held

Captain Pro Se: Dum dum da da. Stop. I am Captain Pro Se and I wish to be heard. (US Marshall grabs Captain pro se) Unhand me you cad. I shall be heard.

Roberts: Who are you and how did you get in here?

CPS: I am Captain Pro Se and I wish to be heard on this issue.

Roberts. The case is over. The opinion has been written.

CPS. An outrage. You will not hear me? I shall appeal. Just watch.

Justice Thomas. Sorry Pal, we're at the top of the moutain. There is no appeal from our decisions.

CPS. You just watch it Judge big mouth or next election I will run a candidate against you.

Thomas. Wrong again my masked moron. We're appointed for life.

CPS. Hmm.... Bar complaint?

Justice Alito: Unlikely to be believed.

CPS. I'll build a Website ridiculing you?

Justice Ginsberg: join the crowd. Your first amendement rights allow you to do it, and many do.

Justice Alito. Not for long. I've only been on the court for two years.

CPS. Rats. Foiled again. Hmm..I shall be reduced to suing each of you personally. Nine members huh? That's a lot of dough for filing fees. I'll have to pace it out. One or two a month. (Marshalls drag CPS away) You haven't heard the last of me. I'll sue. Just wait. Are any of you Rumpole? Ahhh...drats.


(C) Fenwick/Hardwick Prods, in association with Operation Restore Sanity. 2007. All rights reserved.

Anonymous said...

that cps stuff is getting lame.

Rumpole said...

The comment about PD salaries and the equivalent size of a part of the male anatomy, along with other refernces to oral sex did not make it. What made you think it would?

Rumpole said...

Let me respond this way- if you want a comment up- the last thing you should do is call me names- and as to being #6- I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. But either way- what makes you think I will take your gratutious crap?

Fake Stu Aldestein said...

The Stanford Hamlet piece was a riot. This blog stuff is great. Keep it up. Also the CPS stuff is neat.

Fake Michael Matters said...

Yeah....me too.

Anonymous said...

Salaries are posted thru some website I am sure. I do recall that the PBA (well that's who they say did it) mailed out salaries of every single employee (and I mean every single one) at the SAO. This pissed of many assistant chiefs and no doubt pissed off Kathy. You can look up names of course at http://www.myflorida.com/myflorida/index.html. However I must admit that another list is longer over due. There were rumours that Milian had something to do with its release some years back. The office is at an all time low when it comes to morale...no matter what you do....ITS WRONG ITS YOUR FAULT

Anonymous said...

Exellent news for PCAC lawyers. It seems that the county attys office feels SB 1088 is unconstitional as it is violative of Amendment V.

FIDA

fake panunzio said...

Wither Spicoli????

Anonymous said...

I posted yesterday...the DC from the SAO. I have NEVER received any pressure or seen any pressure exerted on any prosecutor to get a win. We all know that in Miami-Dade its not the easiest place to convict. I tell my pit attornies to do the best they can. We make every effort first to avoid trial...and then on the cases that do not plea out, we try them--without a concern of win, lose or draw. As a homicide prosecutor, the only pressure I feel to win is the pressure I put on myself to avoid letting the defendant get away with murder i.e. to seek justice for the slain victim----and in every one of my cases, there is not a question in my mind that the defendant is guilty...its always about whether I will be able to prove it, since I have less than ideal witnesses with records etc. But I can't pick my witnesses and it is what it is. As a DC I have never been told to make sure the line attornies win...just offer fair plea offers and try to do the right thing in each case...which I think we do in my division. I am the same person I was before the many years I have been at the SAO. I have not changed..I believe in justice and fair prosecution and convicting the guilty and freeing the innocent. That will not change no matter who I work for....

Defense attorney said...

DC- well said. But please respond to this- how do you handle situations where your office seeks ridiculous penalties for small crimes?

Judge Reemberto Diaz had a case where the state was seeking something like 20 years because a PERP grabbed some wine on a table in someone's back yard and ran. The state wouldn't back down until Reemberto called the supervisor who wouldn't come to court to defend the decision. And even then the case was pled to something ridiculous like 10 years- for stealing a bottle of wine????

Ever see crap like that? If you're really a DC you have. How do you handle those cases?

Anonymous said...

Do you mean that some pit ASA should explain (in writing) to the legislature why they waived a PERP or GORT mandatory sentence? You may not like the result, but it is the LAW!

Anonymous said...

to 9:36. the state's position is this- if a person has over ten arrests, several convictions and still doesn't get it they deserve to be an hfo and get a severe sentence. what you bleeding hearts forget is if they have a sale of cocaine conviction-they probably sold dozens if not hundreds of other times- if they have a robbery conviction or agg.assault or agg. battery they probably did others. the govt. used sammy the bull as a witness-26 murders but never had a murder conviction. how many drug dealers and johns and prostitutes and homeless are victims and don't or can't go to the police. the average asa looks at priors and in their mind triples the amount of criminal activity. no asa thinks that when you tell him he has 1 prior sale it is true. wake up people the duke case is an aberration- most of these assholes did exactly what they are charged with and 90% of the time you are attempting sentence mitigation and occasionally trying to stop an overzealous asa who is way out of line. once had a vop seeking 9 yrs doc for pushing girlfriend on couch after she threw plate at his head. they lived together. she told him to leave. he pushed her after she said that. charged with burg. w battery. life felony.took months to convince asa to ease up. she is now one of their top murder prosecutors- if not harsh no advancement. no ticky no washy.

Anonymous said...

I'm seven weeks out from beginning training at the SAO. I visit the blog to get some comic relief and escape the monotony of studying for the bar.

Anyways, I have spoken to fellow classmates who have accepted offers to work at SAOs and PDOs throughout the state. They all tell me that they are starting in a courtroom without any training whatsoever. Some counties start the new ASAs in circuit court handling felony cases. When I tell them that Miami SAO provides us with 4-6 weeks of training they are amazed. Accordingly, the fact that Miami SAO provides SOME training should be applauded.

Prior to going to law school, I was very familiar with the Dade County criminal justice system. While in law school, I was a CLI at a PDO, outside of Miami. Let me just say this, defense attorney's in Miami don't know how good they have it. I routinely saw people who were arrested for possession of marijuana serve 60 days in jail. Never mind the fact that a withhold was not automatic, as many second time offenders had their driver's licenses suspended for two years.

The Miami SAO and Judges are considered to be the most lenient in the state. Outside of Dade County, acceptance into a PTI program is the exception rather than the rule.

Say what you say about the Miami SAO, but they are the most understanding and flexible ASAs in the State.

rick freedman said...

To All CAC Attorneys:

If you have not already received a letter from the JAC, please go to the following link and read this carefully:

http://www.facdl.org/FACDLFiles/JAC%20CONTRACT%20LETTER.pdf

A few important points:

If you plan on accepting cases after June 30, 2007, you must sign a new contract with the JAC. The existing contract will expire on June 30th.

Read the amendment that JAC has made to your existing contract (read the attachment above). It contains language that comports with SB 1088 requiring you to send in your bills within 90 days of the final disposition of the case.

Don't forget to check the JAC website for all your existing cases - compare their list to yours. If they do not have all your appointed cases listed, you must send them a letter with the missing cases and attach the appointment Order from the Judge and a copy of the charging document.

There are several possible challenges being considered to SB 1088. We have spoken with officials in Dade and Broward County and the counties may mount an effort to challenge the constitutionality of the bill. FACDL is also exploring several avenues to see whether there may be a viable challenge.

That's all for now.

Rick Freedman
FACDL-Miami

Anonymous said...

9:23pm DC... would it be so simple to extrapolate your experience and make it the norm for the other 20 something DC's in the office.

Unfortunately, your experience is not the norm.

Anonymous said...

An issue that this Duke Nifong thing has brought to light is the conduct of prosecutors and whether or not they act in ethical ways.

It is always assumed by the public that us defense attorneys are the
ethically and morally corrupt, however no one ever assumes that the prosecutors could be more
corrupt.

This is especially the case in Broward, where no matter the strength of your defense case, the State will almost never nolle pros a case. The rationale I've heard is that if the guy is clearly innocent the jury will find him not
guilty, so there is no problem.

But as we all know the cases you think you should win, sometimes you
lose. And the cases you think you should lose, sometimes you win.

This Nifong thing is a much larger
problem than people undertand. It is just that usually when the State fails to dismiss a case(or reduce the charges) despite overwhelming evidence of innocence, the defendant is a poor
person with no PR.

Christian Dunham

Anonymous said...

This is the DC from before...I must say that I have been involved in a couple cases like that where the crime was very minor and the defendant was habitualized and looking at a ridiculous amount of time for a relatively minor crime. I remember one case where the defendant was looking at around 10 years for taking a shirt from a clothesline in the backyard...burglary...In all of the cases like that, I got waivers of perp or gort or whatever it was from KH and the defendant was pled to something like 366 or 364 or even less...KH is extremely reasonable in dispensing justice. I can say that a case as you described would NOT happen in my division. I'm not afraid to get involved in any of my division cases and I routinely do to help resolve the case--and several times I tell the division ASA that this case is going no where and advise them to talk with the victim about a reasonable realistic resolution of the case...which sometimes is a nolle prosse...or PTI. I don't have an interest in keeping any case going that should not be pushed. I know how criminal cases can directly affect people's lives and after all these years of prosecution, I think I'm more sensitive to defendant's rights than I ever have been. But again, that is me, not my office telling me...

Anonymous said...

What did he do before he took that bottle of wine? Did he have 16 felony priors? Had he just gotten out of prison for murder? Did he leave with the wine because he got caught before he could take anything else? Was anyone home?

What if it was your house?

fake hansen said...

Breaking music news: Hansen has a new hit song, and will be touring the country:

Shum..Bop do wop diddy diddy
Shummie Bop diddy diddy da
shummie bop do wop bop

Shumie bop diddy diddy da
shummie bop diddy diddy da
shumnie bop do waaa..........

Anonymous said...

Rumpole - I keep reading the young prosecutors posting about how "aweseome" their training is, but let's be real. This is their first job, so they have never had any training before this other than law school. I really don't think they would know what "awesome" training is until they have some experience under their belts and can accurately express how a young lawyer should be trained. Those of us who have been practicing for a while understand how woefully ignorant we were when we began. For many of us, the training we received was not sufficient and we had to learn (painfully at times) on our own. So, take their assertions with a grain of salt. The poor things don't know any better.

Rumpole said...

It's good ASA's get trained. But the issue for me is- are they trained to scoff at and ignore defense claims? or are they trained to examine their cases and understand that not every police officer tells the truth? Not every defendant tells the truth either- indeed most don't. However, the Job of ASA is very hard- winning is important- and as the DC said- you don't want to lose a case where a murderer will go free- and yet sometimes, when police and witnesses lie- the result is required, lest mistakes occur. It is hard to train a lawyer that winning is not always the most important thing. It is counter-intuitive to everything a motivated young lawyer has been trained to think.

Anonymous said...

New to Miami- heard co-worker talking about this blog. Let me see if I understand this. A bunch of anonymous lawyers try to intellectually outdo each other over minor things, sometimes debatable issues. If they are challenged or someone makes a good point, their is name calling. If the person or persons who run the blog don't like what you say it is not posted or is censored. And it sounds like almost everyone is either in the beginning of their career or have been around awile and feel ignored or are jealous of the best lawyers who seem to barely know of this blog because they have work to do. so to all of you -get back to work.

Anonymous said...

I dont get this Nolle Prose shit.

why not just dismiss the case and be done. Many don't understand the meaning of Nolle Prose.

Can you even get a nolle pros case sealed or expunged?

Anonymous said...

laugh for fifteen minutes me and Judge so and so did....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un_PjRXV5l8

the funniest audio video ever

Anonymous said...

As a former ASA and training attorney, I can assure you that young ASAs are not initially trained to ignore justice or go for the win. The problem lies with the DCs and chief assistants in the felony division.

For example, I was berated by a division chief for not going for the win when a defendant wanted to change his plea to guilty right before a trial. I offered above guidelines and restitution and the court offered guidelines and restitution. He was still sentenced as an HO, but my DC was fuming. I felt that if he was sentenced as an HO then justice was served... right? Wrong, according to my DC. I should have gone to trial because it was an easy win. Trial stats are important.

One of the career criminal chiefs told me that it does not matter whether I win or lose, the important thing was to go to trial. Trial stats are important and promotion in the office is based upon trial stats not the ability to close a case with satisfactory results.I was stunned.

A few weeks later, the Judge , the PD and I were discussing cases, the Judge commended me for my courage of not taking the easy win. The DC was in the room at the time and the Judge commented that she/he was disappointed with the DCs attitude.
Later that afternoon, I was then called on the carpet by a chief assistant . I should have gone for the win. I should have gone for the win to get more time. Sad . I quit a few days later, breaking my commitment.

The point is in training we were told to uphold justice at all costs. Justice to me did not include going for the win. I knew taking the job would mean a low salary compared to my peers but I also had a string sense of right and wrong and not beating a man when he is down.What I learned from my experience at the SAO is that politics and egos prevail over justice at the SAO.

To think a county court ASA is poorly trained is not true. I am proud of the training I received at the ASA. I think it made me a better lawyer and defense attorney today.

Oh by the way, for all of you who believe that Scott Fingerhut is Rumpole, he is not. He is actually one of the County Court guest trainers so he knows how well trained the ASAs are. Fingerhut would not write a post questioning the training at the SAO.

Anonymous said...

Yes, the ASA's are trained to not trust defense attorneys. But, not by the SAO. They're trained by the many defense attorneys who claim that all of their clients are innocent, have alibis, and deserve a break and the countless defense attorneys who argue that every stop is bad, every arrest was without cause or racially based, and every case should be dismissed. Gee, I wonder why the young prosecutors become so cynical.....

Anonymous said...

I worked with an asa who was better than me and my coworkers. he didn't take crap from the cops, he once nolle prossed 7 cases one day from the same department because none of the a forms alleged one of the elements for that particular misdemeanor. he was an asa but the cops didn't like him, he also investigated the cops beating a suspect. two years later he was arrested for a bullshit misdemeanor and he and his career have never been the same. he became a great defense attorney but has never recovered from what they did to him. and we know at least a couple times a year others suffer similarly, i.e. chilotis.it takes 5 years to learn how to try cases and you learn by trial and error, hard work, and dedication to your profession. a supervisor handing you the recent flw case law and predicate questions isn't training.

Anonymous said...

Under yesterdays post a person commented that once ASAs realize that police officers and victims have the right to notice and that is it and once ASAs realize that the plea offers will be more reasonable. Try to tell that to the ASA who is placed on probation or fired for going against the wishes of the victim for offering a guidelines plea when the victim and police wanted blood. It is not the young ASAs . The fault lies with the DCs and the administration playing politics and watching Kathy's ass.

Anonymous said...

To the 9:23 pm DC that posts here, you sound like an old-timer in the SAO. Maybe you ought to run against Kathy. Your kind of thinking is long gone there. I remember the office in the 80's and how prosecutors were trained to seek justice, and many of those ASA's went on to be great judges. In county court, for example, there hasn't been much common sense since Pam Thomas was chief. Ben Daniel was an excellent trainer who had life experience and had also worked defense. A big problem in the SAO is that the new kids have never had a real job in their lives and have zero life experience, then go on to make decisions that affect other people's lives without the slightest idea of their impact, or, worse yet, they do not care because in their inmaturity they are blinded with a simplistic black & white view. Those kids then go on to be division chiefs without ever learning to use common sense.

Kenny Marvin used to say "At the PDO we teach people to be lawyers, at the SAO they teach people to follow rules".

The SAO doesn't like to hire people with experience in the criminal justice system. They look for totally green kids, preferably from out of state, so that they can be molded to follow "policy" instead of using their minds to think, and then you have ASA's pursuing b.s. cases like Inspector Javert pursued Jean Valjean in Les Miserables.

Rumpole said...

I did not post the comment from the crazy person who is now going to sue me (again). Plus another Bar complaint. Plus sue Google. Again.

But if I ever had to defend myself against this lunatic, I would start with the email he sent me a while ago- probably when he was taking his meds- saying how funny he thought the blog was, including the post about him. Just something for the person who others apparently refer to as "Captain Pro Se" to think about.

While I do not really know his medical history, nor his mental status, the above statements are my opinion of him, based on his writings to me, which are more like rants, including the time he accused me of runnning all the blogs and that all the blogs were commenting about him all the time. It seemed a bit paranoid to say the least. Anyway, I am sure the Florida Supreme Court will welcome your pleadings.

Anonymous said...

You dont have to post the message just wanted to know you got the message. Thanks DM

Ps. your comment "including the time he accused me of runnning all the blogs and that all the blogs were commenting about him all the time."

Go back and re-read the email I sent and you will discover I was talking about how someone spammed all those nasty comments over and over in all your old blogs.

We will see how this all ends I am actually very intersted in how the Supremes deal with this and what I do after in State or Federal court.

Complicated legal issues with that communications act and all. I have done some homework and still thinking about the best ways to go about this. I will start with the mandamus petition and see what happens.

Your buddy.

Anonymous said...

Judges are also partially to blame for not educating these ASAs in the school of courtroom hard knocks. Back in the golden age of the Justice Building, an ASA wouldn't think of pulling any crap in front of Snyder, Morphonios, Margolius, Cowart, etc. because they knew that the judges wouldn't put up with it. I've seen nasty looks from Margolius cause the state to come up with fair and just pleas (though against SAO policy) that no reasonable defense attorney would reject. These old judges would be equally as hard with defense lawyers who rejected fair plea offers as they were with the ASA's that would not make them because of SAO policy and politics.

Anonymous said...

Rumpole, is CPS or HWMNBN or whatever you call him a real crazy person, or someone who gets his kicks by pulling your leg? Maybe he ain't crazy after all and he's just having a grand time laughing at you.

Anonymous said...

The PDs should stop posting apocryphal stories about the goings-on in Judge Diaz' courtroom.

Anonymous said...

1:47....."the SAO doesn't like people with experience in the criminal justice system." You are either naive or a fool. The SAO can't afford to pay a competitive salary. The SAO takes what it can get for its starting class.

Regardless, when presented with the opportunity, KFR has jumped at the chance to hire people with other experiences........you ever hear of Michael Van Zamft (a defense attorney in his previous life)? Thomas Headley? Don Horn (formerly of Shutts and Bowen)? Chet Zerlin (who left to practice as in Georgia and returned)? Tammy Forrest (formerly a Fort Myers ASA)? Etc.

Maybe you have a problem with the office because of your willingness to express fact free opinions.....maybe people would be more willing to listen to you if you actually knew what you were talking about.

Anonymous said...

This is my sao badge- there are others like it but this one is mine. I polish it to keep it shiny. It is supposed to mean that I will defend the constitution, I will not prosecute the innocent and I will not be pressured by supervisors on how to practice law. It is my bar card, license and status as a lawyer. When I do good I did it-when someone complains about me it is MY license. So ASA of KFR, practice law the way you feel you should or get out but don't hide behind your actions by saying your division chief told you to do it this way. Too many chiefs, be an Indian or go work for somebody else.

Anonymous said...

Bill Barzee is considering running for Dade-County Public Defender.

Rumpole said...

2:36- Here is exactly what you wrote me:


Dear, Sir:I am Darrin McGillis and was just sent a link to your blog.It seems from my review that every single blog you have posted in the site has some sort of libel referance (your misspelling, not Rumpole’s) my name.Would you look into all you most recent post and make a independent review. I think you will agree that the post should be removed.It seems that every blog has been attached with libel against me. Kindly,inform me of the action you have taken if any on this matter.Darrin McGillis

Specifically: "every single blog you have posted in the site has some sort of libel referance (your misspelling, not Rumpole’s)"

What about that does not seem parnoid for a blog that gets 50 or so comments a day, and in which I post a new post every day or so?

You believe everything is about you? I consider that delusional.

2:40- I have done my research on this individual. Spoken with people who have had the misfortune to deal with him. Misfortune not in the sense that he has any legal skills. He does not in my opinion. Misfortune in the sense that he apparently has time on his hands and believes he can use that weapon-making lawyers waste their time dealing with his nonsense.

Take for instance the posts the last two days- they are about an issue he knows nothing about, and has nothing to do with. Good comments and discussion about the State Attorneys Office. But, because he is not included he wants - in his own words- to shut this blog down. Why? because he once sent me threatening emails- I posted them and made fun of him- and he can't do anything about it- and it drives him to apparent distraction.

Anyway- I am violating my own rules by writing about him. He is banned from this blog, and that also makes him upset. You see, when he was upset he would post the names of every lawyer in florida in the comments section. Which made it hard for people to participate. At his very core he destroys things he can't control or understand, and this blog is both to him, and he finds that very threatening.

Anyway, his emails cannot reach me as they are blocked, and I decided to post one of his comments. But no more- lets move on.

Anonymous said...

I always laugh when a young judge asks a young prosecutor if they object, like to a motion for continuance, and then if they do, denies it or engages in some 15 minute argument about it. Note: The State's objection (usually robotic) is not your cue to what your ruling must be. Be a judge, not a state shill.

Anonymous said...

Sy Gaer is one of the few attorneys still able to insult (GENTLY) the asas and get away with it. I recently heard him tell a C attorney that was arguing that even though the bond hearing judge only found pc for a misdemeanor, he, indeed, wants to file a felony information. Sy reminded him that PC stands for PROBABLE CAUSE, not that computer monitor he copies and pastes at work. Priceless.

Operation restore sanity said...

Rumpole- we are begging you-please take his emails off spam block and give them to us. They would be great for our web site "Operation resore Sanity". Things have been a bit slow lately.

Sincerely,

the guys who run operation resotre sanity.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I Love Sy!!!
I was an ASA and never felt pressured to try a case just to get a win. It was true that if you tried cases, you did better in the office. The more you won, the less a loss mattered. However, maybe I was just very lucky, but I always had incredible DC's --Steven Bustamante, David Ranck (for a short time). I'm going to post this anonymously so as to not hurt the feelings of anyone who was my DC but was not included in the above list.

Anonymous said...

How about this little ditty:


Shumie Shumie
Tv Show
Shumie Shumie Shumie?

Catchy little tune.

Operation restore Sanity said...

In the hovel darkened cave of Captain Pro Se-
(humming to himself) "I sue I sue it's what I Like to Do."

speaking to his faithful cat Petition
Hmm...Petition...lets see who can I sue this week? The Governor? No those security guards give me a hard time. Hmm... That bar complaint against the President of the Bar needs to be redone. I know he knows who Rumpole is the jerk. Why won't he tell me?

Here Kitty kitty. Good kitty. Maybe I'll get another Kitty and name it Court Costs. Heheheh...hmmm..what's next?

Hmm...Suit against F Lee Bailey..nah...

Suit against The President...nope.

Something will come to me. Time to check the blog again.

Argggg!!!! Another one of those Captain Pro Se Posts....they'll pay ...I swear someday every lawyer in Florida will owe me money! HAHAHAHHAHhahhahha


Will Captain Pro Se succeed in his evil plan to get court costs from every lawyer in Florida? Can anyone stop this evil genuis?

Tune into Operation Restore Sanity for the next great adventure of Captain Pro Se.

Hardwick/Fenwick Prods...in association with Operation Restore Sanity (C) 2007, all rights reserved.

Anonymous said...

I don't know who does those Captain Pro Se posts but I live for them I tell ya...I live for them. The Best Jerry!!! The best.

Anonymous said...

Yes, the Shumie tune is pretty catchy, especially for someone who runs the blog.


Shumie Shumie
blogger blogger
shumie shumie shumie

Anonymous said...

You said:
Bill Barzee is considering running for Dade-County Public Defender.

I say:
Bill Barzee will never have that part!! It's exactly what he needs! Never! You tell that wop Barzeeni he will never work in this town again!

Anonymous said...

You are mistaken, 2:40, it I who gets a kick from pulling Rumps leg and yes, I have a grand time laughing.

By the way Rump feel free to traverse the Atlantic in your dinghy anytime this or next week. We can hang out at my house in Gray Harbour. I have plenty of Port and Cigars.

Circle K

Anonymous said...

rumpp you are totally full of shit on this one. the asa's are trained to behave ethically. the problem is that everyone in the office doesnt have the expereince to know how to separate the shitty cases from the rest. part of the problem is that the new people lack expereince and are moved up too fast because that office is hemorrhaging bodies.

i was an asa in the mid to late 90's and you had a wealth of expreince in that office. robbery asa's had been with the office 5 year or more dc's six to seven years. it took along time to move through felonies.the difference was with a high level of expereince, a good asa could explain to his DC why a case needed to be dropped and the expereinced DC would listen. now everyone is so green they dont have the wisdom that comes with experience.
all your whining about career criminals is nonsense. for too many years the judges just closed cases by sending violent criminals to the SORT program and giving everyone a drug deviation just to close cases. the judges of Dade brought these cc laws on themselves by being so ridiculously permissive. The sao should be trying to sentence career criminals more harshly that is what they are supposed to be doing.
what you really miss is the fact that you cannot count on whining to a judge about a drug problem and having them undercut the state so that you earned your bottom feeding shitty fee.

Anonymous said...

If it were the case that every ASA is required to get wins, then I suppose that would be jumping to conclusions in the opposite direction as well. Wins are important to help people advance, but are certainly important to a C and B, who the management is sitting around thinking about whether they want to keep them around or can them - because quite frankly, the hiring trends of the last year and so, have been that there are far more ASA's than there have been in previous year classes and far less losses at the County and Juvenile levels pre-Felony.

So right now, management can afford to be choosy and ASA's can and will be terminated at will. 'Wins' seem to make an ASA far more immune from elimination - kind of like reality TV? "For your win today, you are exempt for the next elimination round."

If of course, however, you're a "favorite" in the office, then yeah, I'd say the 'Wins' requirement might be let up on or lessened and not required. Heck you probably might not even have to go to trial regularly. And of course, if you have a good DC like Mon 9:23pm - then that might be another out for the 'Wins' requirement.

But lets not sugarcoat the harsh reality that goes on.

Rumpole said...

There was one comment from last night I did not publish. Not because of your allegation of my identity- as usual it was wrong. But because of the subject matter of the comment. I have- as I wrote yesterday- left that behind.

Move on.org.

Anonymous said...

The claim that ASAs need to pump up their trial stats to get promoted is laughable. Because of turnover, promotions come so fast that EVERYONE is promoted way to quickly (no matter how much they suck). 10:07 is right..........the top prosecutors can become DCs within 3-4 years. WAY too early. The crappy ones take 5. WAY, WAY, too early. The issue is not one of training, but experience. Solve the turnover fiasco and things will change.

Rumpole said...

Based on the number of threats I am getting from one particular individual, I'm beginning to think those guys at Operation Restore Sanity may be on to something.

Anonymous said...

keep it up smart ass. dedicating the whole day to you and this writ.

your buddy
DM

Anonymous said...

this fight between you and dm, cps, hwmnbn is priceless.

Anonymous said...

i hear that bill clay is gathering funds to run for PD.

Anonymous said...

As a former ASA, I can say that no one sat me down and said win win win or else you won't get promoted. I can say that I had some unreasonable DCs... and that I had some unreasonable cases... usually I resolved that problem by going to one of the "Big 3" or "3 headed monster" as I called them. I can honestly say that if you know how to pitch as case to a supervisor, usually they made reasonable offers. Sure, I was not happy with the political B.S. in the office, and truthfully they have promoted many an ASA to DC just because they had a "homicide" under their belt, and not because they should be a supervisor in any way. I am not a fan of the way business is conducted at the SAO, but I hate to keep quiet and let people think that the office condones a win at any cost. While there, I did the right thing if I couldn't prove a case, or if I thought the plea was ridiculous. I would hate for anyone to think otherwise.