The first week of January is chock full of historical days.
On January 3 for example, the curse of the Bambino began in 1920 when the Red Sox sold Babe Ruth to the New York Yankees for $100,000.00. On that same day, every Judge in County court can tell you that in 1932 Oliver Wendell Holmes presided over his last oral argument in the Supreme Court. One of the advocates before him that day? None other than Earl Warren, who was conducting his first oral argument before the high court, and went on to become Governor of California, potential Republican Presidential nominee, and Chief Justice of Hialeah Branch Court the Supreme Court.
On January 5, 1971, former heavyweight Champion Sonny Liston died.
On January 6, George Herbert Walker Bush, back from being the youngest US fighter pilot in the Pacific, married his wife Barbara. And in 1919, TR- Theodore Roosevelt, died peacefully in his sleep at home.
And of course on January 7, 1943, in room 3327 at the New Yorker Hotel, Nikola Tesla, age 87, who had NOTHING to do with electric cars, died.
Which brings us to January 6, 2021, when a mob incited by the president at the time, stormed the Capital chanting "Hang Mike Pence" while Pence's boss called them "beautiful people" and told them that he loved them.
But that brings us to this, which is how we would defend any of the people charged with crimes relating to January 6:
The Declaration of Independence, says this:
"That when any form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government ...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such Government..."
In other words, Americans have the right and duty to overthrow their government under certain conditions.
And who is to say what those conditions are that constitute "absolute despotism"?
Our point being that while we do not support the former president and believe he was involved in a cabal to subvert an election that he lost, people who stormed the Capital did so under the real and mistaken belief that their government was engaged in a design to reduce them to rule under a despot.
We would gladly defend the Capital rioters under the Declaration of Independence defense because we must never forget that we are a country that was founded through armed defiance of a foreign despot and that our freedoms were won by farmers and millers and smiths who united to defeat the strongest army on earth.
There are no easy answers to the question of what happened on January 6, 2021.
PS: Save your breath on emailing us in outrage that the Declaration of Independence also says "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
We've read the document. More than once. Indeed, we can quote it from memory.
23 comments:
Complete crap. These rioters were not in any way defending American liberties, they were seeking to subvert an election. Protesting that election is acceptable, violently rioting and invading the capital is not. Put 'em in jail for as long as you can.
The method of overthrowing the government is election. That's what the colonists lacked and why they had the right to insurrection. So long as we have free and open elections - which we do - that is the ONLY option for overthrowing the government.
And save me your breath on election fraud conspiracies and all of the rest of the Big Lie bullshit. Lindsey Graham put it well during his speech from the floor on January 6, 2021:
"They said there’s 66,000 people in Georgia under 18 voted. How many people believe that? I asked, 'Give me 10,' and had one. They said 8,000 felons in prison in Arizona voted. Give me 10. I got one. Does that say there’s … There’s problems in every election. I don’t buy this. Enough’s enough."
When you undertake a violent attempt to overthrow a government, you are rightfully subject to the full fury of that government in its defense. This particular attempt was perpetrated by violent political gangs on behalf of a particular candidate. The genius of this country is that it created systems to assure transfers of powers and leaders to avoid the violence historically associated with those inevitable processes. I'm sure that all of us have witnessed a number of sporting events that were affected by what we believe is bad officiating. We've agreed to a process for deciding the tough calls and moving on to the next game. The last election was not close but that doesn't matter, the process is what it is and we all have to move on because America is bigger than all of it. General William T. Sherman's biggest complaint against the south he loved was that it had made war against a fair and benevolent government. The scum that brought violence to the political process of this great nation were treated much too kindly. They should have been shot then or given multi-decade sentences in prison. Traitorously attacking the U.S.A is an unforgivable offense to the greatest country in the history of the world.
5 people died because our country has descended into a bunch of assholes. There are improprieties with any election ( standard of error?) There can be no confusion or idiotic spin; Trump is a wanna be dictator, his minions are akin to cultists which is driven by racism , xenophobia and fear of demographic evolution and there is an absolutel Machiavellian/Mein Kamph blueprint being used. It was the most repulsive event I’ve seen in my lifetime. Those savages have the very scary adage that if you follow their nutty ideology, then you’re a patriot; if not then you’re a traitor. We are in the downfall of the USA. There can be no spin , it was what it was, an attempt to subvert democracy I am ashamed of what has happened to our country and if it was do-Anne, I’d move to Canada
Stop exaggerating. This is just what the Republicans did with Benghazi. Try to exaggerate the hell out of something for political purposes.
This was a riot, plain and simple. It wasnt a insurrection. Yes, the rioters fought police to get into the building, which of course is a crime and is bad, every bit as bad as the rioters who fought cops to take over an entire police precinct in Seattle and engaged in violence at the courthouse in Portland on a daily basis. Did you hear about how in seattle the rioters tried to use concrete to seal the precinct door shut while they tried to light the building on fire with police inside? Did you hear in portland when a guy broke into the courthouse and struck a police officer with a hammer three times? You be the judge in whether these acts are worse or on par with the riot at the capitol. (Oh and no one was shot by police in portland or Seattle, even the *armed* rioter with the hammer).
Maybe you can make a case that because it was AOC inside the capitol who was scared, rather than police inside the precinct that rioters were trying to burn to the ground, that we should care more about 1/6. If that's ur theory, congrats.
I love the whole "assault on democracy" angle, which is total BS. Yes some of the 1/6 rioters talked a big game, but what did they do once fighting to get inside? Did they assault any members of Congress? Light the place on fire? Hurt any civilians? Bring out a gun to make a demand? No, they acted like rioters. They paraded around, stole some stuff, broke some stuff, took selfies. Those are the ACTIONS of rioters, not insurrectionists, misguided as those actions were.
Consider the case of the protesters that screamed and disrupted momentarily the confirmation hearing of justice kavanaugh. Even though the express purpose was to stop kavanaughs confirmation, did we feign alarm that they were trying to "disrupt a constitutional process?" No the protesters got tickets and were on their way. And when rioters *succeeded* in essentially shutting down the portland federal Courthouse, did we call it an assault on democracy and the independence of the federal judiciary? No, we didnt.
Stop the exaggeration...its been a year...move on
This "improprieties" is bullshit. The number of "improprieties" is so tiny as to be meaningless. Republicans are lying dirtbags. When they move their lips, lies come out.
Take election "fraud." The liers say there is fraud. We, the normals, can't say. "There is no fraud," because there are instances of fraud. They are so few, so tiny, that they don't matter. In fact, most cases of voter fraud are attempted fraud, because the fraudsters don't get to cast a ballot. But, those of us who live in a fact-based world, can't say "there is no fraud." So, we lose the debate. This is the problem with the Overton window, or the window of discourse, the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time. When truth is irrelevant, the folks who don't care about truth win.
The lying liars shift the window, because they are not moored in reality, and we all wind up debating between fraud and infinitesimal fraud. So, they have us arguing about fraud. They win - we lose.
It is time to just face facts. America is over. The Republicans are going to win the midterms. They will abolish the filibuster, and ram all kinds of nonsense through. The two-party system, which has kept us from fascism, will be abolished. We all know that the only kind of legitimate election is the kind Republicans win.
Trump won! All hail President (for life) Donald Trump. Hail!
The flaw in asserting the Declaration of Independence defense, Rumpole, is that the insurrectionists were not trying to "alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government," because their complaint was not with the government, it was with the election. They were trying to maintain the same government. The insurrections are the loyalists of yesteryear, not the colonists. Now, if today the government was oppressing these same people and they stormed the Capitol trying to throw the despots out, THEN you'd have a Declaration of Independence defense. Not that it would be a winning defense......
1/6 is a huge embarrassment. And 1/6 participants themselves bear full responsibility for their actions. But let's not pretend it is only crazy QAnon wackos that got us to where we are. Stacy Abrams never conceded she lost her election, and she was made to be a hero. Hillary said 2016 was stolen, to this very day (remember "never concede"). A majority of libs believe the conspiracy theory that russians hacked election machines and changed Hillary votes to trump. Pretty much every person who reads this blog believes the 2000 election was stolen from al gore. And kavanaugh is literally sitting in a scotus seat stolen from Merrick Garland.
Across the board, people need to respect elections and the democratic process. Libs cant beat the stole election drum every time they lose and feign surprise when the other side jumps off the same cliff.
Very liberal democrat here: Those people are not Americans. They're criminals and assholes. They killed police officers who were just doing their jobs. I defend people but, I could not in any way represent any of those assholes. That went way too far. And to think, millions of Americans still believe in Trump and that he was unfairly denied a second term. Makes you wonder who lives next door.
I say using the plain language meaning of 'absolute despotism' would completely contradict your claim of any defense.
The rioters were trying to keep a ruler in power.
They were actually seeking a dictator - even if they were too idiotic to know it.
The process of elections is used to fight despotism.
You want to defend the insurrectionists, then go ahead. But don't try to justify with this type of crap. We fought a war to prevent fascism abroad, and are now facing it here at home.
John Wilkes Booth made the same argument, and we all know what happened to him.
There’s no possible interpretation; it was a day of infamy and Trump is pure evil
Let's all put on our lawyer hats shall we? I am NOT saying this was the appropriate way to challenge an election stolen by the Chinese living in Venezuela and running child porn pizza site supported by Clinton and Obama.
What I am saying is that if we revere the DOI, then we have to acknowledge what it says.
516
Contrary to MSNBC, they did not kill any police officers. However, an unarmed rioter was shot at almost point blank range and died. Thankfully in Portland and Seattle, police did not make the horrible decision to use live ammunition on rioters. It used to be even using tear gas was frowned upon in lib circles.
1:08:PM. I’m pretty sure that the seat of the federal government has not been moved to Seattle or Portland and those protestors weren’t there on behalf of and at behest of a candidate for the presidency. Yeah, it’s been a year but the final report hasn’t been written and it’s in the interests of all Americans, past, present and future, that we determine precisely the actions of the gang of traitors at the top. Hey, it took 8 years to try to get to the bottom of Benghazi. Putin has trained you well.
@453
You said: "A majority of libs believe the conspiracy theory that russians hacked election machines and changed Hillary votes to trump."
Where do you get that? I do not know a SINGLE person that believes this. Not one. I've never even heard anyone debate the possibility that this might have happened outside of conservative spheres of discussion. None, not one, of the people in my liberal circle believe that Hillary election was illegitimate, fraudulent, or "stolen."
In fact, polls show that 65% of democrats, compared to 73% of republicans, believe that the 2016 election results were counted accurately. While its saddening that 35% of democrats didn't agree with that, the number isn't really shockingly partisan when even 27% of republicans didn't believe that the election results were counted accurately. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distrust-this-years-election-results-than-democrats-after-2016/
At most, here are the things I hear from liberals about the 2016 election: 1) Russia engaged in a disinformation campaign spreading false information on social media to influence US voters to what Russia perceived as its advantage; and 2) the Electoral College is undemocratic and we should amend the Constitution so that in the future the popular vote governs presidential elections. That is a FAR cry from what you are talking about.
730
"Putin has trained you well."
In case you missed it the 3+ years of pushing the "russia russia russia" bogus conspiracy theory--all to undermine a duly elected president I might add--is OVER.
I guess you didnt get the memo...
You can riot without consequence if you have the backing of the State (see summer, 2020). You cannot riot without serious consequence if you lack the backing of the State (See January, 2021).
Simple as.
1104
"In a fall 2017 Post-UMD poll, 67 percent of Democrats and 69 percent of Hillary Clinton voters said Trump was not legitimately elected president"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/01/post-poll-january-6/
As late as 2018, 2/3 of all Dems believed "Russia tampered with vote tallies in order to get Trump elected President."
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/03/09/russias-impact-election-seen-through-partisan-eyes
So yes these are polls from 2017 and 2018. And now of course libs "forget" they all beat the "stolen election" drum because they won the most recent election. Dont worry, next time the Republicans win pay attention... the stolen election nonsense will be back, and they will have forgotten all the BS about how it's an assault on democracy to undermine the results of an election.
If you "forgot" all the "Russia Russia Russia" nonsense, just look at 730 ("Putin has trained you well") for a reminder of the mindset of the looney libs.
Ps i will gladly accept your apology for doubting me
1:08 pm, the man who hit the federal marshal 3 times with a hammer in Portland got 4 years, mor than what the government requested after the judge held the hammer in her hand and saw it was not a regular household hammer but a 4-lb construction hammer.
True
224
Personally 4 years is too much for me for hammer guy.
But my point was that this guy is a rioter, not a terrorist, and the 1/6 participants were rioters, not insurrectionists.
The fact that the feds prosecuted hammer guy...who did something marginally worse than any 1/6 defendant that I know of, proves nothing. In fact, if a 1/6 defendant used a hammer, DOJ wouldnt ask for *less than 4 years.* heck, they asked for almost 4 years for the mentally I'll qanon shaman who used no violence whatsoever.
And I think anyone who objectively compares the DOJ response to 1/6 versus Portland would have to concede DOJ is going much much harder on the 1/6 people.
For one, they are hammering everyone for 1/6, even nonviolent trespassers. And even for those defendants, they are pushing punishment for "being part of a violent mob", a type of collective guilt not pushed on the portland trespassers.
They broke into the capital at a bad time. The optics were such that hammer time was appropriate.
Post a Comment